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| - | Forced Induction comes in two forms: Supercharging and Turbo-supercharging. Both work well in a Datsun 1200! | + | Forced Induction comes in two forms: Supercharging and Turbo-supercharging. Both work well in a Datsun 1200! |
| = Overview = | = Overview = | ||
| + | Also see: | ||
| + | * [[Turbo]] | ||
| + | * [[SC14]] | ||
| + | |||
| discussion: [http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9997&forum=1 s/charged a14] | discussion: [http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9997&forum=1 s/charged a14] | ||
| One thing to remember is that '''a method that works well''' isn't the '''only''' good way. | One thing to remember is that '''a method that works well''' isn't the '''only''' good way. | ||
| - | <blockquote>[http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13956&forum=3 Wuote:]<hr>Forced induction. | + | <blockquote>[http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13956&forum=3 Wuote:] Forced induction. This is a subject that was vigorously & robustly debated in an extensive thread not so long ago, so have a play with the search function & you will likely find it. |
| - | This is a subject that was vigorously & robustly debated in an extensive thread not so long ago, so have a play with the search function & you will likely find it. | + | |
| Myself, & a few others prefered the ability of the positive displacement blower to deliver high levels of torque, almost instantly, at very low engine speeds, while a large number of others prefered the advantages that a turbo offers at higher engine speeds. | Myself, & a few others prefered the ability of the positive displacement blower to deliver high levels of torque, almost instantly, at very low engine speeds, while a large number of others prefered the advantages that a turbo offers at higher engine speeds. | ||
| The turbo debate was further broken down into blow through versus suck through. | The turbo debate was further broken down into blow through versus suck through. | ||
| - | See if you can find this thread & have a read through it all. With some luck ou will gain an insight of the advantaged & disadvantages offered by each system.<hr> | + | See if you can find this thread & have a read through it all. With some luck ou will gain an insight of the advantaged & disadvantages offered by each system.</blockquote> |
| - | </blockquote> | + | |
| The big discussion: [http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6428&forum=1 regarding Turbocharging A12]. Caution: difficult reading in that discussion. | The big discussion: [http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6428&forum=1 regarding Turbocharging A12]. Caution: difficult reading in that discussion. | ||
| = Supercharging vs. Turbocharging -- what's better? = | = Supercharging vs. Turbocharging -- what's better? = | ||
| - | Section under construction. Volunteers? You gotta present both sides. | + | Turbocharging generally makes more power as the engine revs higher. So does centrifugal supercharging (paxton, etc). |
| + | |||
| + | By contrast, a rootes-type blower, twin-charger or screw-charger makes power all through the RPM range and so makes the engine feel like a larger displacement engine. It also does not suffer from lag like a turbo does. | ||
| [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=94 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/94.jpg] | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=94 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/94.jpg] | ||
| Line 34: | Line 38: | ||
| Twin-Turbo A12 | Twin-Turbo A12 | ||
| - | = Draw-through or blow-through turbo systems? = | + | = Draw-through vs Blow-through = |
| - | Section by [http://datsun1200.com/userinfo.php?uid=596 datto_dave] | + | You can put the carburetor before the blower (draw-through) or after the blower (blow-through). |
| - | + | ||
| - | The carburettor can be mounted in two positions on a turbo-charged engine, and a great deal of controversy exists as to which is better. The carburettor can me mounted such that it feeds air into the turbo then the turbo feeds it to the engine. This is known as a Draw-Through system.Under these conditions the carburettor operates more or less as it would on a naturally asperated engine. Another school of thought says that the carburettor should be mounted between the turbocharger and the intake manifold. This means that the turbocharger draws fresh air and pumps it into the carburettor, which then feeds the fuel/air mixture to the engine. This setup allows the use of an intercooler, which draw-through does not. In fact there are several advantages to a blow through over a draw through, because the fuel/air does not have to travel through the turbo. The blow through system requires a boost sensitive rising rate fuel pressure regulator in order to increase fuel pressure with boost pressure as the rpms rise. | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=519 http://photobucket.com/albums/mm219/ddgonzal/Datsun%201200/album/th_519.jpg] | + | |
| - | Blow-through system | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | Another snag to the blow-through system is that the carburettor must be enclosed in a pressure box and the fuel supplied to the carburettor must be at a suitable pressure above the boost pressure. This means the fuel pressure has to be regulated in accordance with the boost pressure at all times. My own personal preference to date has been for the draw-through system this is largely substantiated by other people in the industry who are running very high-powered turbocharged cars. Almost all are using draw-through systems. However, the speed equipment industry doesn’t stand still. A new development with blow through systems could change the picture. The specially designed for ‘blow-through turbo applications Dellorto side draught carburettors may well be that development. | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=526 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/526.jpg] | + | |
| - | Boxed-carb blow-through system | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | A third possibility exists; fuel injection. Here, the injection system has to be designed to measure the amount of air going into the turbocharger by whatever means. It then injects the correct quantity of fuel into the engine at whatever point is convenient. The butterflies for throttling the engine may be situated either prior or after the turbocharger, depending on ease of installation layout. If the injectors are situated in such a position that they injected into a high pressure boosted environment, then the injection pressure must be compensated for by whatever pressure the boost level has reached. Fortunately most fuel injection systems have ample fuel pressure to cope with as high as 40-45 psi used in alcohol burners. | + | |
| = Intercooler = | = Intercooler = | ||
| - | An Intercooler is not needed. The first three years of the Porsche 911 Turbo didn't have one (75-77), yet this 3.0 liter turbo outperformed 7.5 liter NA cars. However there are very good reasons to use an intercooler, including: | + | An intercooler can result in far more HP, but requires a blow-through system (boxed carburetor) or EFI port injection. This is because for safety you don't want air-fuel mixture going through the cooler. |
| - | + | ||
| - | * Intercooler is worth it as it significantly reduces the temperature of the compressed air, which increases the boost possible with a given octane fuel | + | |
| - | * Using an aluminum radiator should be better than nothing. Unless someone actually tested this, we are all just guessing. Radiators can flow a lot of water, and air is easier to pump ... so air should flow through w/o significant restriction. Putting this in front of the car should allow some cooling effect, although obviously not as a much as a purpose-designed cooler. | + | |
| - | * An alternative is to use water or alcohol injection. Some OEM applications used water injection (ex. 1962 Oldsmobile Jetfire) | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Wastegate = | + | |
| - | A Wastegate is used for adjustable control over boost pressure. When the set pressure is exceeded, exhaust is routed around the turbine to go out the tailpipe | + | |
| - | * Not needed if you carefully size the turbo to the application (ensuring that at maximum rpm, design boost is not exceeded). Older OEM applications used this method. | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Blow-off valve (or recirculation valve) = | + | |
| - | A Blow-off valve is used to preventin the turbo from surging, for example during gear shift or whenever throttle is closed. Porsche uses these, so obviously they work. | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | * Blow-off intake boost to atmosphere. Boost is lost. Simple, inexpensive | + | |
| - | * Blow-off to compressor inlet (recirculate back through turbo inlet). Used to enhance throttle response: Boost is kept in circuit for immediate availability when throttle is opened again | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Carburetor Setup = | + | |
| - | * Injection is better, allowing better control of mixture | + | |
| - | * Draw through was used by many OEM setups. It is reliable, and the simplest option. The downside is you can't use an intercooler, as the fuel will condense in the cooler. | + | |
| - | * Blow through works well. The main reason to use this over a draw-through is so an intercooler can be used. | + | |
| - | ** Boxing carb. This allows a more or less stock carb to be used, the outsided pressure balancing the inside pressure | + | |
| - | ** Unboxed carb. This was a popular OEM method. phunkdotaspok says this can handle 10 psi with a good top-gasket seal. In an NA application, a warped top is not a problem, as there is no pressure in the float chamber. This only becomes important in boosted application. | + | |
| - | **: [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=535 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/535.jpg] Inside the box | + | |
| - | * Need richer jets to keep air charge cool and prevent detonation | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Fuel pump = | + | |
| - | * Stock fuel pump is good for draw-through setup. It's not enough for a blow-through setup, as 2.5 boost would overpower the fuel pressure | + | |
| - | * Using a low-pressure (15 psi) electric pump oughta be good for a 10-12.5 psi boost. | + | |
| - | * Needle and seat has trouble holding more than 10 psi fuel pressure. Better to use a secondary 15-psi pump to cut in only when needed. | + | |
| - | * Best setup is to use a rising-rate regulator with a high-psi pump. Excess fuel is returned to the tank. | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=564 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/564.gif] | + | |
| - | Fuel regulator | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Turbochargers = | + | |
| - | * T3 is pretty big for an A12. Needs high rpm, head work, etc | + | |
| - | * Mid-80s Nissan Pulsar turbo (E15 engine) has integral wastegate | + | |
| - | * go_the_datto actually tried '''Daihatsu diesel 1.0 turbo''' on A12. Good response in lower rpm ranges. Two make better twin-turbo application for A12 | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | Here is some helpful info on everything from how a turbo works to choosing the right turbo for your engine based on '''compressor maps''' | + | |
| - | [http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/tech_center.html Turbo Tech] | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | = Diesel vs. Petrol Turbos = | + | |
| - | Barpk: The main difference between a petrol and diesel turbo is its seals. Diesel turbos don't have positive seal turbo seals, which means that if put it in a suck-through system they can leak oil under extreme vacuum, which happens when throttle is closed. This is not a problem in a blow-through system. | + | |
| = Boost pressure = | = Boost pressure = | ||
| * 6-7 psi is what a lot of OEM applications use. | * 6-7 psi is what a lot of OEM applications use. | ||
| * 10 psi should be possible with a stock A12/A14 | * 10 psi should be possible with a stock A12/A14 | ||
| - | * 14.7 lbs gives theoretically double the airflow so max. power would be about 2x stock, but this isn't actually the result. The reason is that the stock induction and exhaust system won't flow this much air under pressure. However, the low rpm torque could approach 2x (at about 2250 rpm) if a small turbo is used. So a 130hp turbo engine will have much more performance than a 130hp NA engine | + | * 14.7 lbs gives theoretically double the airflow so max. power would be about 2x stock, but this isn't actually the result. The reason is that the stock induction and exhaust system won't flow this much air under pressure. However, the low rpm torque could approach 2x (at about 2250 rpm) if a small blower is used. So a 130hp forced induction engine will have much more performance than a 130hp NA engine |
| - | * 1986 Honda 1.5 liter ran boost of 4.0 bar - that's 300 bhp ... per cylinder with special fuel | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=527 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/527.jpg] | + | |
| = Induction and Exhaust = | = Induction and Exhaust = | ||
| Line 122: | Line 68: | ||
| [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=652 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/652.jpg] | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=652 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/652.jpg] | ||
| Ram plenum manifold | Ram plenum manifold | ||
| - | |||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=518 http://photobucket.com/albums/mm219/ddgonzal/Datsun%201200/album/th_518.jpg] | ||
| - | Exhaust manifold idea | ||
| - | |||
| - | [http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=653 http://datsun1200.com/uploads/thumbs/653.jpg] | ||
| - | Exhaust flange | ||
| = Setups = | = Setups = | ||
| Line 140: | Line 80: | ||
| manifolds to suit oval port | manifolds to suit oval port | ||
| 32/36 Weber [[DGV]] carburetor | 32/36 Weber [[DGV]] carburetor | ||
| - | |||
| [[Category:Engine Modifications]] | [[Category:Engine Modifications]] | ||
| [[Category:Fuel System]] | [[Category:Fuel System]] | ||
Revision as of 06:25, 11 April 2013
Forced Induction comes in two forms: Supercharging and Turbo-supercharging. Both work well in a Datsun 1200!
Contents |
Overview
Also see: * Turbo * SC14
discussion: s/charged a14
One thing to remember is that a method that works well isn't the only good way.
Wuote: Forced induction. This is a subject that was vigorously & robustly debated in an extensive thread not so long ago, so have a play with the search function & you will likely find it. Myself, & a few others prefered the ability of the positive displacement blower to deliver high levels of torque, almost instantly, at very low engine speeds, while a large number of others prefered the advantages that a turbo offers at higher engine speeds. The turbo debate was further broken down into blow through versus suck through. See if you can find this thread & have a read through it all. With some luck ou will gain an insight of the advantaged & disadvantages offered by each system.
The big discussion: regarding Turbocharging A12. Caution: difficult reading in that discussion.
Supercharging vs. Turbocharging -- what's better?
Turbocharging generally makes more power as the engine revs higher. So does centrifugal supercharging (paxton, etc).
By contrast, a rootes-type blower, twin-charger or screw-charger makes power all through the RPM range and so makes the engine feel like a larger displacement engine. It also does not suffer from lag like a turbo does.
B&M blown A14 (rootes-type supercharger)
B&M supercharged NAPS-Z engine (rootes-type blower)
Centrifugal supercharger (belt-driven turbine)
Compound Supercharging concept
Twin-Turbo A12
Draw-through vs Blow-through
You can put the carburetor before the blower (draw-through) or after the blower (blow-through).
Intercooler
An intercooler can result in far more HP, but requires a blow-through system (boxed carburetor) or EFI port injection. This is because for safety you don't want air-fuel mixture going through the cooler.
Boost pressure
- 6-7 psi is what a lot of OEM applications use.
- 10 psi should be possible with a stock A12/A14
- 14.7 lbs gives theoretically double the airflow so max. power would be about 2x stock, but this isn't actually the result. The reason is that the stock induction and exhaust system won't flow this much air under pressure. However, the low rpm torque could approach 2x (at about 2250 rpm) if a small blower is used. So a 130hp forced induction engine will have much more performance than a 130hp NA engine
Induction and Exhaust
Obvious, for more airflow, a higher flowing carb, intake, heads (ports and valves) and exhaust system is beneficial.
Supercharging will increase power on a stock engine, but increasing the airflow capability of the engine will bring your blown engine to its full potential
This factory A14 forklift exhaust manifold might be useful:
Turbo Camshaft specs
Tuned-port Intake
UM-1 Manifold
Ram plenum manifold
Setups
suppafatto
Toyota SC14 is every popular
Toyota SC14 blower oval port lo-comp head watermeth injection hi energy ignition manifolds to suit oval port 32/36 Weber DGV carburetor